Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: You're listening to the doctrinal cassette series of the church of God 7th Day, produced by the Media Outreach Agency.
This doctrinal tape study is entitled Did Jesus Pre Exist? And our speaker is Ray Straub.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: When did Jesus begin to exist? Was it when he was born a babe in Bethlehem, or was he in existence before that birth?
If he existed before he was the child of Joseph and Mary, in what form did he exist?
Was he the coming embodiment of God's plans and promises, or did he pre exist as an actual person, a member of the Godhead?
These questions are the focal point of much intelligent debate.
The possibility of Jesus pre existence introduces an interesting topic that deserves our time, attention, study and reflection.
Why is this subject so deserving?
Why does it matter whether Jesus existed before he was born?
The most significant reason to study this subject is because it tells us something important about Jesus.
It gives us insight into his nature.
We have a better idea about the character and substance of the teacher healer who walked among us centuries ago.
Additionally, it helps us draw more profound meanings from some of the important passages of the New Testament.
A case in point is 1 Timothy 3:16 and without controversy. Great is the mystery of Godliness God was manifest in the flesh.
If the child born in Bethlehem was human and only human, this statement of Paul's would require a lot of explanation.
Why would someone who is purely human be called God manifest in the flesh?
If, on the other hand, we understand the Bible teaches that Jesus pre existed his arrival as an infant in a manger, we may also perceive him as as having been a member of the Godhead, existing with God as God.
Paul introduces this matter of God's being manifest in the flesh. Interestingly, he observed, great is the mystery of godliness, or great is the mystery of our religion.
Yes, it is replete with mystery, but that is precisely the way the human mind must relate to God.
A philosophical postulate proposes that the mind is equal to what it knows.
Our groping mentality uses knowledge to grasp as much as it can. It is uncomfortable and restless when challenged by mystery.
Consistent with this suggestion, the human mind is always attempting to grasp God because then it feels equal to Him.
However, that will never happen.
The human mind is finite, limited, incapable of extending itself fully. On the other hand, the mind of God is perfect.
The prophet quoted the Lord's comments on this for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8 9 Knowing these truths, Paul's comment follows.
Great is the mystery of godliness. God was manifest in the flesh.
Even though not all curiosity can be satisfied, the truth has been spoken.
This study will examine the evidence which indicates that Jesus existed as a being before his human birth.
Our study begins with John Chapter one.
We read from verse one.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
This opening statement seems to be completed in verse 14 and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Even though the information given in these verses reveals that Jesus was God in nature, it is not apparent to some that he existed as a separate being before his birth.
It would appear that verse three provides the necessary evidence. It reads, all things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
Before commenting further on this verse, some companion passages need to be read.
The first is from Colossians 1:16, 17 for by him were all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by him and for him and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
The final two verses belonging to this group are found in Hebrews 1:1:2.
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
We must conclude that Jesus was not only present at the time of creation, but he also had a prominent part in it. In fact, he was the chief agent of creation.
This information is given in Revelation 3:14, which reads, and unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans.
These things saith the Ammon, the faithful and true witness the beginning of the creation of God.
The phrase upon which we focus here is the beginning of the creation of God.
Beginning in this case does not refer to his coming to be, but rather it refers to his being first in position.
The new International Version renders this the ruler of God's creation.
Other versions characterize him as pre eminent creation.
All of this evidence indicates that Jesus existed as a separate being at creation, enjoying a position of prominence.
We conclude then that Jesus existed with God the Father when the earth came into existence.
God is the source of everything.
It was through Jesus that all things came into being.
Another evidence that Jesus existed with God the Father before his birth is his repeated claim that he was sent to earth.
He could hardly be sent if he was not in existence.
Such expressions abound through the book of John.
Along with these expressions are assertions that he descended from heaven. Please note these expressions as I quote and no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 he that cometh from above is above all he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the he that cometh from heaven is above all. John 3:31 Jesus saith unto them, my meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work but I have greater witness than that of John for the works which the Father hath given me to finish the same works that I do. Bear witness of me that the Father hath sent me and the Father himself which hath sent me hath borne witness of me for I came down from heaven not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend upon where he was before, Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, ye both knew me, and ye know whence I am and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not, but I know him, for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
Then said Jesus unto them, yet a little while I am with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
In the eighth chapter of John, in verses 16, 18, 26, and 29, Jesus again spoke of being sent by his Father.
We now turn our attention to two verses in this eighth chapter of John which are especially significant.
Verse 42 Jesus said unto them, if God were your Father, ye would love me, for I proceeded forth and came from God neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Note that Jesus is placing heavy emphasis on acceptance of the truth that he came from God.
Failure to comprehend this was indication that God was not actually their Father, even though they claimed to be members of the Divine family.
Were they members, they would have known where Jesus originated.
Beginning with verse 56 and forward, Jesus contended that he had some acquaintance with Father Abraham.
I quote a portion of this interesting dialogue from the Jesus said, you, Father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, thou art not yet 50 years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them. Verily, verily, I say unto you. Before Abraham was I am.
This last verse ended with rather strange before Abraham was I am.
The Jews were made so angry by that expression that they began to throw stones at Jesus.
Why would they be so upset at this unusual wording?
The reason for their anger may be found in Exodus 3:14.
This is part of the narrative of Moses being called by God to lead the children of Israel from Egyptian bondage.
God was persuading a reluctant Moses that he was to go to Pharaoh to bring Israel out of Egypt.
Understandably, Moses was intimidated by the prospect of such a task. He wanted to know how he would identify the God who had sent him.
Thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, and I am hath sent me unto you.
During the years that followed, the name of God took on a sacred meaning. It was mentioned only under the most rare and special circumstances during Jesus time. It seemed not only totally disrespectful to mention the name, but blasphemous. To be identified with Is reasonable to assume, then, that Jesus was insistent that his countrymen know that that he was not only sent by God to earth, but that he also shared his nature.
This introduces us to the third evidence that Jesus pre existed.
It concerns Jesus reflecting the Father's glory.
I again read John 1:14 and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.
Note here that Jesus projected a unique kind of glory. It is described as that glory pertaining to the only begotten of the Father.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: This concludes side one of our Did Jesus pre existing? This study will continue on side two.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: Hebrews 1:3 gives this description of Jesus who being in the brightness of his glory.
The use of the word glory in these verses deserves some explanation.
Most Christians are aware that the Greek employs three words to express the English word love.
These have been explained often. I'll review them just briefly.
Eros is a kind of love that is sensual in nature. It has possessive qualities.
Phileo speaks of an attraction between individuals, a love for one's relatives or close friends.
Agape is used to describe a love for God and a lifestyle based on that love.
Even this brief description of the three Greek terms for love enables us to perceive that each word has its own distinctive meaning.
The same situation exists with the word glory.
The Greek has two words which speak of glory.
One of these words is timi.
This Greek word for glory speaks of an honor due to a man who has established a certain worth, he deserves recognition.
The other Greek word is doxa, which speaks of a radiance that issues from a person, that person being God.
In a general sense, this kind of glory is not applicable to men in reference to God. It is a luminous manifestation of his person.
Recognizing this distinctive meaning to the word doxa, we perceive a new understanding of verses such as Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord that is my name, and my glory will I not give to another.
Or we see new insights in the reading of Psalm 24:7 8, 10 lift up your heads, O ye gates, and be ye lift up ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in.
Who is this king of glory? The Lord, strong and mighty.
The Lord, mighty in battle. Who is this king of glory? The Lord of hosts. He is the King of glory.
Moses was devastated by the sinfulness of the children of Israel. When he descended the mountain bearing God's law, he sensed that his close relationship with God was damaged and he sought reassurance.
The ensuing conversation between Moses and God is helpful in identifying what the glory of God is.
To take advantage of more up to date wording, I read from the new international version.
The pericope is taken from Exodus 33:12 22 Moses said to the Lord, you have been telling me, lead these people, but you have not let me know whom you will send with me.
You have said, I know you by name, and you have found favor with me.
If I have found favor in your eyes, teach me your ways so that I may know you and continue to find favor with you.
Remember that this nation is your people.
The Lord replied, my presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.
Then Moses said to him, if your presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here.
How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us?
What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?
And the Lord said to Moses, I will do the very thing you have asked because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.
Then Moses said, now shew me your glory.
And the Lord said, I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name. The Lord in your presence I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
But he said, you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.
Then the LORD said, there is a place near me where you may stand on a rock.
When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand, and until I have passed by, then I will remove my hand and you will see my back, but my face must not be seen.
This incident makes a direct connection between the presence or face of God and His glory.
It is noted that the face of God and the glory of God are referred to interchangeably.
The Ark of God in the Old Testament symbolized His presence.
Just having this ark gave Israel reassurance that their God would help them in times of distress.
Other people noted the strength Israel drew from the ark's presence and concluded that indeed this symbol must contain some magical or supernatural power.
On one occasion the Philistines defeated Israel and took the Ark of God.
Eli was an aged priest of Israel.
When he was told of the loss of this ark, he fell off his seat backwards, broke his neck, and died.
He had a daughter in law who was on the verge of giving birth to a child.
When the news reached her that the ark of God had been taken and that both her husband and father in law died, she went into labor and delivered the baby.
She named the baby Ichabod, meaning the glory is departed from Israel.
1st Samuel 4. 22 reads, and she said, the glory is departed from Israel, for the ark of God is taken.
This incident also indicates that the presence of God and the glory of God are closely related.
These reminders provide new perspective to Jesus. Revelation of the Father's Glory it was that of the only begotten of the Father, a quality of glory which revealed the very presence of God.
Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus was the radiance of God's glory.
Jesus shared his Father's glory He came to earth, where he revealed it to mankind, and then he returned to his previous place of glory.
Reading from Jesus prayer in John 17, verses 4 and 5 I have glorified thee on the earth I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was Nowhere is the progression of Jesus pre existence in glory, his ministry to mankind, and his return to glory more graphically stated than in Philippians 2, 5, 11.
This eloquent pericope is introduced by the excellent advice given in verse 4 look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
It is fitting to point out that Paul's advice here is always timely and it is always hard to follow.
If only a greater number of redeemed blood bought Calvary oriented Christians would express concern for others instead of themselves, great improvements would be seen.
Yes, changes could be brought about by unselfish Christians. Say nothing about those who claim no religion at all or who are devotees of another faith.
My reason for becoming a bit sanctimonious is to emphasize the challenge of Paul's advice.
To be more concerned about others is a platitude churchgoers are used to hearing, but it's a message not widely adopted.
Paul understood the loftiness of this counsel.
One can be sure he did because of the example he an instance of the most unselfish behavior known.
We read about it from the new International version. Again, this version was selected because its language is more easily understood.
Continuing reading with Philippians 2:5 and forward.
Please note the words and their message.
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus, who, being in very nature God did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing. Taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness, and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross.
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth, and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
We summarize the evidence indicating that Jesus pre existed his birth in Bethlehem.
First, we know that he pre existed because he is identified as the one through whom creation took place. He was there.
Second, Jesus stated that he proceeded from the Father, he was sent to the earth, and he would return.
Third, Jesus brought the doxa glory of God to humanity.
He enjoyed the glory of God's presence before his appearance as a servant among men.
He revealed God's glory while on earth, and he returned to this exalted place after his resurrection.
Let's reflect briefly on some inspiring conclusions we may reach on the basis of these truths.
Jesus took on human nature so that we might share in the Divine nature, according as His Divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue, whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious, that by these ye might be partakers of the Divine nature.
Partaking of the Divine nature is to share in the very being of God. Jesus came from glory so that we could share it with Him.
Jesus gave up his wealth in glory so that we who were deprived of God's glory might become rich.
Paul writes, for ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
God sent His Son who lived obediently, died sacrificially, rose triumphantly, and has returned to His Father to live gloriously.
We may share these experiences. Praise God for His unspeakable gift.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: That concludes our doctrinal study entitled Did Jesus Pre Exist? The doctrinal cassette series of the Church of God Seventh Day is a presentation of the Media Outreach agency.
